1 00:00:10,090 --> 00:00:11,150 You want a glass of champagne? 2 00:00:11,810 --> 00:00:12,810 I don't drink. 3 00:00:15,030 --> 00:00:16,910 I don't drink and I don't smoke anymore. 4 00:00:17,590 --> 00:00:18,590 I've never smoked. 5 00:00:18,930 --> 00:00:19,930 You have. 6 00:00:20,030 --> 00:00:23,170 I've seen you having a go. You've never seen me go. 7 00:00:24,850 --> 00:00:27,830 You've never seen me doing that, ever, because I've never been able to. 8 00:00:28,090 --> 00:00:30,690 Was it something you aspired to do? 9 00:00:31,530 --> 00:00:34,910 It infuriates me that I haven't been able to do it. 10 00:00:37,050 --> 00:00:39,150 I have... There you are now. 11 00:00:39,539 --> 00:00:40,379 Ninety-one. 12 00:00:40,380 --> 00:00:45,660 And what I have longed to do is to do a part where you go... Well, what I said 13 00:00:45,660 --> 00:00:50,660 was that what you should do... Well, 14 00:00:51,500 --> 00:00:52,500 it's no good now, is it? 15 00:00:53,180 --> 00:00:57,140 You're doing very well. It's terribly good. Yes, but it's because I rehearse 16 00:00:57,140 --> 00:00:58,140 it all the time. 17 00:01:21,100 --> 00:01:26,600 My guest today is perhaps best known for playing one of cinema's most powerful 18 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:27,940 and fearless wizards. 19 00:01:28,340 --> 00:01:31,680 You shall not pass! 20 00:01:34,580 --> 00:01:37,480 Treacherous road, these paving stones. 21 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:40,460 Have you ever fallen on them? 22 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:45,860 No, I'm very surprised you've got time to come down here to see me. 23 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:49,900 I brought you a plant. 24 00:01:50,570 --> 00:01:51,570 Excuse me. 25 00:01:54,970 --> 00:01:56,050 Are we going in here? 26 00:01:56,290 --> 00:01:57,570 You can and watch your head. 27 00:01:57,810 --> 00:01:59,230 Come here. 28 00:01:59,470 --> 00:02:01,310 Step, step, step down. 29 00:02:01,790 --> 00:02:03,210 This is idyllic, isn't it? 30 00:02:03,430 --> 00:02:05,470 Well, I love it. I love it. 31 00:02:07,130 --> 00:02:11,330 My name's Ian McKellen. I'm a 30-year-old actor earning £50 a week. 32 00:02:12,830 --> 00:02:16,190 As one of our most beloved and versatile actors. 33 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:20,720 Ian McKellen started out on stage almost 70 years ago. 34 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:26,300 Devil take Henry of Lancaster and the patience is stale and I am weary of it. 35 00:02:26,420 --> 00:02:31,920 As well as classical leads like Shakespeare's murderous Richard III, 36 00:02:32,140 --> 00:02:37,000 he's played characters like the lovable but troubled Walter. 37 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:38,880 Walter, listen to me. Walter. 38 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:45,820 He's appeared in global blockbusters, not only as the wise wizard Gandalf in 39 00:02:45,820 --> 00:02:46,820 Lord of the Rings. 40 00:02:47,020 --> 00:02:51,700 Death is just another path, one that we all must take. 41 00:02:53,340 --> 00:02:57,860 But as Marvel's mutant on a mission, Magneto in X-Men. 42 00:02:58,180 --> 00:03:00,840 My dear boy, whoever said I wanted you? 43 00:03:02,620 --> 00:03:07,920 As well as being a renowned actor, Ian has also been an inspirational gay 44 00:03:07,920 --> 00:03:09,200 rights campaigner. 45 00:03:09,930 --> 00:03:13,770 The majority of people are still very strongly opposed to spreading 46 00:03:13,770 --> 00:03:18,250 homosexuality. No one wants to spread it. It exists in society, always has, 47 00:03:18,390 --> 00:03:19,390 always will. 48 00:03:19,610 --> 00:03:24,610 Today, I'm very pleased to welcome my great friend for tea and a chat about 49 00:03:24,610 --> 00:03:27,010 our lives, both on stage and off. 50 00:03:31,930 --> 00:03:35,030 Sweetheart, say hello to Ian. She won't. 51 00:03:35,450 --> 00:03:37,310 Oh, oh, you're very lucky. 52 00:03:38,329 --> 00:03:41,710 That's incredibly lucky, sweetie. 53 00:03:42,430 --> 00:03:43,490 It is Leon. 54 00:03:44,490 --> 00:03:46,830 You are a treasure. Does she know who you are? 55 00:03:47,090 --> 00:03:49,090 Well, I should hope so. 56 00:03:49,430 --> 00:03:51,810 But you're the source of food and company. 57 00:03:52,390 --> 00:03:56,270 Yes, and she knows who I am. You do know who I am. 58 00:03:58,630 --> 00:04:05,390 Now, Jude, I have here two samples of, um, Parkin. Do you like 59 00:04:05,390 --> 00:04:10,090 Parkin? Parkin? Do you like parking? I have in here some Yorkshire parking and 60 00:04:10,090 --> 00:04:14,990 some Lancashire parking. And the quiz question is, which is the better? 61 00:04:15,890 --> 00:04:16,890 There's a fork. 62 00:04:17,970 --> 00:04:20,490 I say, is this the Yorkshire parking? 63 00:04:21,149 --> 00:04:26,010 Yes, so it won't be as good as the Lancashire one, but let's give it a go. 64 00:04:26,930 --> 00:04:29,770 Well, you need me to make me mind up about that. 65 00:04:31,650 --> 00:04:34,090 Ian and I both hail from the north. 66 00:04:34,570 --> 00:04:39,190 I grew up in York and Ian across the border in Bolton and Wigan. 67 00:04:40,290 --> 00:04:45,490 Aged 18, long before he became a wizard, he won a scholarship to Cambridge 68 00:04:45,490 --> 00:04:46,490 University. 69 00:04:47,470 --> 00:04:48,870 What year did you go? 70 00:04:49,630 --> 00:04:50,630 1958. 71 00:04:52,010 --> 00:04:54,370 Did you go knowing you wanted to be an actor? 72 00:04:54,590 --> 00:04:58,710 I'm asking you questions that I should have asked you years ago. 73 00:04:59,230 --> 00:05:02,330 I fell in love with the theatre at a very early age. 74 00:05:03,130 --> 00:05:06,190 Peter Pan when I was three. Oh, yes. When I was three. Oh, yes. 75 00:05:08,330 --> 00:05:13,250 Pantomimes, the local professional actors in Wigan and Bolton where I live. 76 00:05:15,850 --> 00:05:19,150 Acting at school, acting at the Little Theatre. 77 00:05:19,970 --> 00:05:24,950 And I thought I was going to be an actor like the other amateurs, like the 78 00:05:24,950 --> 00:05:26,150 teachers who were actors. 79 00:05:26,610 --> 00:05:28,510 But then when I got to Cambridge... 80 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,500 There were all these boys and girls as crazy about the theatre as I was. 81 00:05:41,420 --> 00:05:46,180 Miriam Margulies, Derek Jacoby, Clive Swift. 82 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:52,440 And they were all going to go into the professional theatre. I thought, if 83 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:54,040 Derek Jacoby could do it. 84 00:05:57,620 --> 00:05:59,050 So... I followed suit. 85 00:05:59,870 --> 00:06:05,570 And then, when I'd finished at Cambridge, some of us went off to drama 86 00:06:05,570 --> 00:06:09,630 school, but I was 22 and I thought, oh, that's the time I was earning a living, 87 00:06:09,730 --> 00:06:10,730 isn't it? 88 00:06:11,070 --> 00:06:15,870 So I just wrote off to a lot of regional theatre companies. Did you go to drama 89 00:06:15,870 --> 00:06:16,870 school? 90 00:06:18,090 --> 00:06:19,090 Can't you tell? 91 00:06:21,010 --> 00:06:23,870 I never understood what you learn at drama school. 92 00:06:24,230 --> 00:06:26,490 I think it's dancing and fencing. 93 00:06:26,910 --> 00:06:31,750 Good point. What we learned at drama school, you don't much need now, which 94 00:06:31,750 --> 00:06:35,530 upsets me very much. Voice production. That is how to project your voice to a 95 00:06:35,530 --> 00:06:36,970 theatre without using a microphone. 96 00:06:37,930 --> 00:06:44,930 Come on, Jude, let's hear it. Oh, I just think that a microphone on 97 00:06:44,930 --> 00:06:49,050 an actor, for me, it puts a barrier up because it's a false sound. 98 00:06:49,990 --> 00:06:50,990 It's sad. 99 00:06:51,770 --> 00:06:56,950 Because it takes away a whole element of what we know about putting a part 100 00:06:56,950 --> 00:06:57,950 together. 101 00:06:58,130 --> 00:06:59,770 I know, I know. 102 00:07:01,970 --> 00:07:06,970 After university, Ian, like many young actors of the time, went into regional 103 00:07:06,970 --> 00:07:10,730 theatre. And it wasn't long before our paths crossed. 104 00:07:11,650 --> 00:07:13,250 Do you remember The Promise? 105 00:07:13,470 --> 00:07:15,070 Is it over 60 years ago? 106 00:07:15,330 --> 00:07:19,650 I was thrilled when the theatre... At Oxford? Oxford Players. 107 00:07:20,190 --> 00:07:24,650 said, would I come and be in a Russian play, a modern Russian play, with you? 108 00:07:24,990 --> 00:07:28,890 Because I had admired you from afar, but we'd never met, I don't think. 109 00:07:29,510 --> 00:07:30,730 So I got very excited. 110 00:07:30,970 --> 00:07:31,970 It was exciting to do. 111 00:07:32,930 --> 00:07:33,930 Then there was Ian. 112 00:07:34,050 --> 00:07:35,330 Ian McShane. Ian McShane. 113 00:07:35,630 --> 00:07:38,710 That's all there was, Ian. I know, he was a bright young thing, wasn't he? The 114 00:07:38,710 --> 00:07:39,710 three of us. 115 00:07:41,290 --> 00:07:44,350 And Russia was the enemy at the time. It was the Cold War. 116 00:07:44,950 --> 00:07:47,210 So to do a play which said... 117 00:07:47,580 --> 00:07:52,760 No, the Russians are as human as we are, have the same problems as we have. 118 00:07:54,020 --> 00:07:56,940 War is devastating for them as it is for us. 119 00:07:58,940 --> 00:08:00,240 Well, there's a good message. 120 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:01,720 You bet. 121 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:07,760 The play was a great success, but it would be another eight years before Ian 122 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:09,320 and I shared a stage again. 123 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:14,340 This time, in George Bernard Shaw's comedy Too True To Be Good. 124 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:15,720 Mr Lee! 125 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:23,840 I appeared as a nurse masquerading as a countess alongside my beloved husband, 126 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:28,820 Michael. How many boxes, countess? Oh, six, I'm afraid. Will it be a lot of 127 00:08:28,820 --> 00:08:30,480 trouble? It will involve a camel. 128 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:33,440 Strings of camels, if necessary. 129 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:35,440 Expenses no object. 130 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:39,280 While Ian played a thief who turned out to be a vicar. 131 00:08:40,659 --> 00:08:45,740 You don't remember this, but I do. I'd been out the previous night and... 132 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:53,120 heard two actors talking about our play and talking about 133 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:54,120 my performance. 134 00:08:54,280 --> 00:09:00,380 And one of them said, these young actors, they go up and down the scale 135 00:09:00,380 --> 00:09:05,020 with their voices, they wave their arms around, they don't stand still, they're 136 00:09:05,020 --> 00:09:06,800 looking at themselves in the mirror. 137 00:09:07,180 --> 00:09:10,500 If this is the future of the theatre, I want nothing to do with it. Well, I 138 00:09:10,500 --> 00:09:12,040 thought, stupid fellow. 139 00:09:12,570 --> 00:09:17,590 Next night, I'm standing there with you. I'm in a one-piece bathing suit, feeling 140 00:09:17,590 --> 00:09:18,590 a bit vulnerable. 141 00:09:19,970 --> 00:09:24,990 And I suddenly think, everyone in the audience agrees with that man who said 142 00:09:24,990 --> 00:09:26,390 those horrible things last night. 143 00:09:26,750 --> 00:09:30,570 And I am dreadful and I shouldn't be here. I have no right to be here. 144 00:09:31,050 --> 00:09:32,170 Why am I here? 145 00:09:32,870 --> 00:09:36,030 What's the play? I have no idea what I'm doing. 146 00:09:36,550 --> 00:09:37,970 Oh, there's Judi Dench. 147 00:09:38,810 --> 00:09:40,170 What's she doing here? 148 00:09:40,780 --> 00:09:44,420 And I turned my back and gave you a signal. I don't know what I'm doing, 149 00:09:44,500 --> 00:09:51,140 Judy. And I don't know what magic empathy you had. You just 150 00:09:51,140 --> 00:09:58,080 took over my lines and your own lines and you finished the scene as a 151 00:09:58,080 --> 00:09:59,080 monologue. 152 00:09:59,660 --> 00:10:00,900 Because I couldn't speak. 153 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,840 I was in the depths of stage fright. 154 00:10:05,140 --> 00:10:09,420 And you came off. And we didn't make much of it. And you said, are you all 155 00:10:09,420 --> 00:10:10,420 right, Ian? 156 00:10:10,650 --> 00:10:12,150 I said, I don't think I am. 157 00:10:12,590 --> 00:10:14,650 It's just I don't think they think I'm any good. 158 00:10:15,330 --> 00:10:17,330 And you said, oh, don't worry about that. 159 00:10:17,610 --> 00:10:19,110 That'll wear off in time. 160 00:10:19,570 --> 00:10:20,710 I think that's all we said. 161 00:10:21,110 --> 00:10:22,029 And it did. 162 00:10:22,030 --> 00:10:23,710 Three months later, I was fine. 163 00:10:24,390 --> 00:10:27,670 Three months? The next night, I expect you weren't, because I don't even 164 00:10:27,670 --> 00:10:28,529 remember it. 165 00:10:28,530 --> 00:10:29,530 No. 166 00:10:33,090 --> 00:10:36,190 It's nice that you don't remember, because... 167 00:10:36,680 --> 00:10:40,040 It was just another actor helping another actor out, which is what we do, 168 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:42,260 isn't it, at best? At best. 169 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,560 It's entirely... So, to you, it wasn't a remarkable event? 170 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:51,780 Or noticeable, even. Well, have you ever had stage fright? 171 00:10:52,180 --> 00:10:58,720 I had a night in Cabaret when I knew that Johnny Neville and Caroline came to 172 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,700 the show, and I wanted to be... The best. 173 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:02,959 The best. 174 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,260 Well, of course, I... 175 00:11:05,890 --> 00:11:08,170 Dried in the middle of the song, I think. Did you really? 176 00:11:12,590 --> 00:11:18,010 It is amazing how little, what you can get by with. We've always said this. 177 00:11:18,210 --> 00:11:22,090 What you can get by with on the stage is that the audience don't notice. 178 00:11:25,430 --> 00:11:26,810 Experts forecast that... 179 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:32,560 By 2055, we could be short by 5 billion litres of water a day. Wait, what? 180 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:34,440 We'll be grown-ups by then. 181 00:11:34,740 --> 00:11:36,200 We're not having that, are we? 182 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:39,500 Oi, Colonel, let's sort it out, yeah? 183 00:11:40,260 --> 00:11:41,980 Take shortage hours. 184 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,180 Use water in cans, not hoses. 185 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:47,860 Keep making the system better. Over. 186 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:52,900 Because when we all work together, it all lasts up. Let's save water! 187 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,920 This September, the sport just keeps on coming. 188 00:12:03,540 --> 00:12:05,980 Bang! It's the stop of dreams! 189 00:12:06,620 --> 00:12:09,340 This is absolutely epic! 190 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:12,400 Sensational! This has been outstanding. 191 00:12:12,820 --> 00:12:13,840 It is pretty cool. 192 00:12:14,180 --> 00:12:20,280 And if you thought that was all, I think again. 193 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:22,440 I've never seen golf like that. 194 00:12:22,660 --> 00:12:24,080 Everyone on the edge of their seat. 195 00:12:25,180 --> 00:12:26,180 My God! 196 00:12:33,580 --> 00:12:39,580 I remember telling you, learn to love failing because it's what you're going 197 00:12:39,580 --> 00:12:40,580 to learn most from. 198 00:12:41,560 --> 00:12:46,400 So on the whole, would you rather not know when friends are coming to see you? 199 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:47,480 No, I love it. 200 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:48,600 Yes, you do. 201 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,140 I love it. It makes you nervous, doesn't it? 202 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:54,700 I'd rather not know. 203 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:01,660 Who was in? But I'd like to be told there's somebody in tonight. Oh, well, 204 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:07,960 you certainly do, because I remember when we did the Scottish play... I know 205 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,240 what you're going to say. Yes, you do. A famous actor. You do. No, a famous 206 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:12,860 director. Peter Brook. 207 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:15,600 On one night, Peter Brook was sitting there. 208 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:20,120 And the play was ever so slightly... 209 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:23,000 Edged in that direction. 210 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:28,000 Faced in that direction. But I think the next night, or the night after that, 211 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:32,520 somebody was sitting... Yes, I think. 212 00:13:32,740 --> 00:13:35,640 And so the whole play somehow... 213 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:42,360 I wasn't the only one. We're so 214 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:43,700 vain, aren't we? Yes. 215 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:45,159 We survey. 216 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:50,400 But sometimes I look through the curtain before the show starts, particularly a 217 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,080 matinee when I'm thinking, oh dear, two shows today. 218 00:13:53,300 --> 00:13:57,640 Do it for someone. I just look through there and I think, that little person. 219 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:00,180 Preferably a child. 220 00:14:00,900 --> 00:14:06,120 And I was doing this when I was doing Hamlet in London in the Cambridge 221 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:11,210 Theatre. And I was looking at it and... Another actor was doing exactly the same 222 00:14:11,210 --> 00:14:14,890 thing. So I said, what are you doing? He said, well, I'm just looking for someone 223 00:14:14,890 --> 00:14:17,850 I want to do the performance for. I said, same here. 224 00:14:18,710 --> 00:14:20,490 He said, oh, I found her. 225 00:14:21,270 --> 00:14:22,270 Her, yeah? 226 00:14:22,490 --> 00:14:23,490 I see. 227 00:14:24,130 --> 00:14:30,610 I said, so what do you mean you're going to do it for her? He said, well, for the 228 00:14:30,610 --> 00:14:34,250 curtain call, I'll have my own clothes already dressed underneath my costume. 229 00:14:34,630 --> 00:14:36,270 I'll get out of the costume very quickly. 230 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:41,220 Catch her on the way out. I know which way she'll come out of the theatre, and 231 00:14:41,220 --> 00:14:45,220 I'll be waiting there. And then when she comes, I'll just go up to her, and I'll 232 00:14:45,220 --> 00:14:50,060 offer my hand and say, tonight the performance was for you, and I'll hand 233 00:14:50,060 --> 00:14:54,820 over a book, which is the Love Sonnets of William Shakespeare, and inside it is 234 00:14:54,820 --> 00:14:55,820 my telephone number. 235 00:14:57,280 --> 00:14:58,280 Who was this? 236 00:14:58,460 --> 00:15:00,680 I said... Who was it? 237 00:15:00,900 --> 00:15:05,100 I said, how often does it work? He said, about one in ten. 238 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:07,680 Well, that's not bad, is it? 239 00:15:14,780 --> 00:15:15,780 What? 240 00:15:16,420 --> 00:15:17,940 It is not a set-up. 241 00:15:18,220 --> 00:15:19,460 This is the back. 242 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:22,720 Suddenly now she's going to give us a bit of a recycle. 243 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,180 No, you can't be in the play. 244 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:34,920 There's no part for a parrot? 245 00:15:35,740 --> 00:15:36,880 Not yet, anyway. 246 00:15:37,420 --> 00:15:38,960 Hello. Hello. 247 00:15:39,540 --> 00:15:41,400 You live with a dreadful actor. 248 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:46,560 As actors, we play many different parts. 249 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:53,580 But for many years, Ian kept a very important part of himself away from the 250 00:15:53,580 --> 00:15:54,580 limelight. 251 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:02,180 Last night, I was at home, and I found some letters from my dad. 252 00:16:03,170 --> 00:16:05,430 written on my 21st birthday, one of them. 253 00:16:05,710 --> 00:16:09,610 I was at university, not living at home anymore. 254 00:16:10,650 --> 00:16:16,830 He was only saying he loved me and I'd done well and he'd always be looking out 255 00:16:16,830 --> 00:16:17,830 for me and everything. 256 00:16:18,110 --> 00:16:23,070 Of course, looking back now, I knew I was gay at 21. 257 00:16:23,450 --> 00:16:27,430 It was the biggest thing in my life, really, the discovery, acceptance of 258 00:16:27,430 --> 00:16:31,210 that. And one of the first person I should have... 259 00:16:31,530 --> 00:16:33,390 talk to about it would have been Dad. 260 00:16:34,410 --> 00:16:35,410 But I didn't. 261 00:16:35,570 --> 00:16:40,550 He's sending me this letter full of love and I wonder, looking back, was he 262 00:16:40,550 --> 00:16:42,870 saying, is there anything you want to talk to me about? 263 00:16:43,170 --> 00:16:44,170 I wonder. 264 00:16:44,430 --> 00:16:51,290 It took me until I was 49 to say to my family, Jean, my sister, who you knew, 265 00:16:51,430 --> 00:16:55,970 that I was going... And her first reaction was, oh, Ian, I've known that 266 00:16:55,970 --> 00:16:59,190 for ages and I've never wanted to talk to you about it because I thought you 267 00:16:59,190 --> 00:17:00,190 didn't want to. 268 00:17:01,070 --> 00:17:06,630 What a waste of time. My dad was long since dead, and my mother before that. 269 00:17:08,869 --> 00:17:14,130 I have a few regrets in my life, but that's one of them. I'm sure. 270 00:17:15,329 --> 00:17:16,329 Talk. 271 00:17:21,690 --> 00:17:26,030 On the whole now, do you live in the present, or the past, or a bit in the 272 00:17:26,030 --> 00:17:27,030 future? 273 00:17:29,550 --> 00:17:32,070 I live in the present because I don't look at the future. 274 00:17:32,550 --> 00:17:39,310 Because my eyesight now is so bad, it's so bad, I can't see any 275 00:17:39,310 --> 00:17:40,590 details of your face. 276 00:17:41,310 --> 00:17:43,490 If you want to feel my face. 277 00:17:44,250 --> 00:17:45,250 Is it there? 278 00:17:46,070 --> 00:17:47,370 I'm so pleased. 279 00:17:58,830 --> 00:18:00,110 Now, you don't know Joe. 280 00:18:00,350 --> 00:18:01,350 Hello. 281 00:18:01,750 --> 00:18:06,950 Who entirely looks after the garden for me. And he's partied before him. 282 00:18:07,410 --> 00:18:12,290 So I'm very lucky. Yes, it's true. 25-odd years coming to the garden. Oh, 283 00:18:12,310 --> 00:18:13,630 Lord. Are you here every day? 284 00:18:13,930 --> 00:18:14,869 Most days. 285 00:18:14,870 --> 00:18:15,950 Well, congratulations. 286 00:18:16,530 --> 00:18:17,249 He's wonderful. 287 00:18:17,250 --> 00:18:18,590 You're so welcome. 288 00:18:20,710 --> 00:18:24,110 As some may know, I've always had a passion for trees. 289 00:18:24,890 --> 00:18:30,790 So Joe and I have arranged what I hope will be a wonderful surprise for Ian, to 290 00:18:30,790 --> 00:18:33,790 mark something that we did together 50 years ago. 291 00:18:34,190 --> 00:18:36,670 Now, I've got something to show you here. Oh, yes. 292 00:18:37,250 --> 00:18:38,250 Something. 293 00:18:39,110 --> 00:18:41,730 Now, here is something. An oak. 294 00:18:42,310 --> 00:18:45,730 Yes, but a very special oak. 295 00:18:46,990 --> 00:18:47,990 Can you see? 296 00:18:48,090 --> 00:18:49,090 Burnham Wood. Yes. 297 00:18:50,710 --> 00:18:52,750 Burnham Wood is a forest in Scotland. 298 00:18:53,420 --> 00:18:55,620 that appears in Shakespeare's Macbeth. 299 00:18:56,220 --> 00:18:58,560 And is it a particular sort of oak? 300 00:18:58,780 --> 00:19:02,340 It's a Cecil oak, which would have been growing... It sort of grows on the 301 00:19:02,340 --> 00:19:04,200 western coast of the UK. 302 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:05,980 In Burnham. Very hardy. Very hardy. 303 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,600 Isn't it lovely? Burnham Wood shall come to Dunsinane. Yes. 304 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:11,220 High Dunsinane Hill. 305 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:13,240 Are we going to plant it? 306 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:15,720 Certainly we're going to plant it. Ah! 307 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:21,080 The play became very special to us in 1976. 308 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:27,340 when we appeared as the Macbeths in Trevor Nunn's famously intimate In the 309 00:19:27,340 --> 00:19:28,940 Round staging of the production. 310 00:19:31,980 --> 00:19:32,740 In 311 00:19:32,740 --> 00:19:39,160 this 312 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:45,740 psychologically intense scene, the Macbeths, greedy for power, 313 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:47,220 have just murdered the king. 314 00:19:49,530 --> 00:19:51,670 When they did say, God bless us. Consider it not so. 315 00:19:51,910 --> 00:19:53,750 But wherefore could not I pronounce our men? 316 00:19:55,610 --> 00:19:57,670 I had missed need of blessing. 317 00:19:58,610 --> 00:20:00,270 But our men stuck in my throat. 318 00:20:00,550 --> 00:20:02,450 These deeds must not be thought after these ways. 319 00:20:02,730 --> 00:20:03,970 So it will make us mad. 320 00:20:04,210 --> 00:20:07,150 I thought I heard a voice cry, sleep no more. 321 00:20:07,990 --> 00:20:09,770 Macbeth does murder sleep. 322 00:20:11,770 --> 00:20:17,030 Well. I'll tell you what was good about just listening to that. It did sound... 323 00:20:18,510 --> 00:20:23,990 As if the two people were in a corridor and something had just happened and they 324 00:20:23,990 --> 00:20:28,970 were having to deal with it. It didn't seem too theatrical. It seemed nervy. 325 00:20:29,170 --> 00:20:31,930 And everyone sitting so close to us. 326 00:20:32,830 --> 00:20:36,330 I mean, the audience were as close as you are to me. Absolutely. So you 327 00:20:36,330 --> 00:20:38,690 couldn't be rhetorical? No. 328 00:20:39,450 --> 00:20:45,730 No. It was very quiet and... No microphones? 329 00:20:46,170 --> 00:20:47,170 No. 330 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:52,680 No. It was in this tin hut called The Other Place. 331 00:20:52,980 --> 00:20:53,980 Like a garage. 332 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:58,560 Yes. There were no facilities. We were sitting on orange boxes. We were. 333 00:20:59,300 --> 00:21:05,300 For some critics, this intimate approach changed how Shakespeare could be 334 00:21:05,300 --> 00:21:06,300 performed. 335 00:21:07,140 --> 00:21:12,220 Stripping away the play's spectacle to reveal a terrifying descent into 336 00:21:12,220 --> 00:21:13,220 madness. 337 00:21:13,900 --> 00:21:17,320 Yet, here's a spot. She's... Out. 338 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,340 Down, spot out, I say. 339 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:27,560 Do you remember the cleric who used to sit... Neville Boundy. He used to... I 340 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:28,920 don't know how many times he came. 341 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:34,300 He used to sit on the front row and he used to wear that wonderful crucifix on 342 00:21:34,300 --> 00:21:38,200 his neck and he used to hold it against us, I remember. 343 00:21:38,820 --> 00:21:40,900 And protecting you from the evil spirit? 344 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:42,280 Or him from us. 345 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:43,480 Oh! 346 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:45,100 It was thrilling to do. 347 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,700 And do you know how much that production costs, the costumes and the set? 348 00:21:49,140 --> 00:21:50,140 No. 349 00:21:50,780 --> 00:21:52,060 £250. Oh, yeah. 350 00:21:53,240 --> 00:22:00,220 I was... John Woodvine and Banco and I were wearing jackets from a second-hand 351 00:22:00,220 --> 00:22:03,680 shop and the button said, Birmingham Fire Brigade. 352 00:22:06,460 --> 00:22:07,460 Oh, 353 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:09,180 I wish I'd known that. 354 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:13,280 The level... Do you remember we all... Well, you wore a dishcloth on your head. 355 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,440 I did. I had a black dishcloth on my head. 356 00:22:15,740 --> 00:22:19,300 Now, I can just now ask you what I've never asked you before. 357 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:20,439 Oh, yeah. 358 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:21,440 I had a birthday. 359 00:22:21,780 --> 00:22:25,740 And as you say, the dressing rooms were very intimate. You couldn't help but see 360 00:22:25,740 --> 00:22:26,740 everything in it. 361 00:22:26,940 --> 00:22:28,700 Everyone had given me a present. 362 00:22:28,900 --> 00:22:30,560 And I opened up the first parcel. 363 00:22:32,420 --> 00:22:34,480 It was rather a welcome pair of underpants. 364 00:22:34,980 --> 00:22:38,020 They said, well, it's because I noticed when you've been changing that your 365 00:22:38,020 --> 00:22:41,120 underpants have got a few too many holes in them. 366 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,020 I said, that's very, very kind of you. Thank you very much. 367 00:22:44,679 --> 00:22:45,980 I'd opened up the next one. 368 00:22:47,540 --> 00:22:49,100 There was another pair of underpants. 369 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:56,700 And John Woodfine had given me a pair of undergear that I think he got from Ann 370 00:22:56,700 --> 00:22:57,700 Summers. 371 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:03,740 They were dreadfully sexual and I never worked out what I was to do with them. 372 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,060 Oh, I'd like to go back and do all that again. 373 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:20,980 Taking his birthday presents with him after Macbeth, Ian went on to star in 374 00:23:20,980 --> 00:23:27,860 Coriolanus, together with numerous leading roles, including the 375 00:23:27,860 --> 00:23:29,160 West End hit Bent. 376 00:23:31,100 --> 00:23:32,100 Hold me. 377 00:23:32,940 --> 00:23:34,880 All right, I'm holding you. 378 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:37,320 Are you? 379 00:23:37,460 --> 00:23:39,160 Yes, you're in my arms. 380 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:40,860 I'll keep you safe. 381 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:45,200 And on Broadway, the award-winning Amadeus. 382 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,820 The winner is Ian McCullough. 383 00:23:50,120 --> 00:23:54,420 For which, in 1981, he won a prestigious Tony Award. 384 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:04,380 Is that the Oscar? Oh, yes, well, I can tell you. Who gave it to you? 385 00:24:04,860 --> 00:24:05,860 Interesting. 386 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:11,200 Amazingly, I won this award for eight minutes of screen time, playing a 387 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,000 withering Queen Elizabeth in Shakespeare in Love. 388 00:24:14,340 --> 00:24:19,710 The Queen of... England does not attend exhibitions of public lewdness, so 389 00:24:19,710 --> 00:24:20,890 something is out of joint. 390 00:24:23,810 --> 00:24:25,110 Come here, Master Kent. 391 00:24:26,610 --> 00:24:29,470 Look, no name or anything on it. 392 00:24:30,950 --> 00:24:33,010 Did you steal it? No. 393 00:24:33,770 --> 00:24:38,310 Two nights, I think, before the Oscars, when I got it, they were all stolen. 394 00:24:39,310 --> 00:24:43,670 The names that should have gone on them... And they never put it on for 395 00:24:43,670 --> 00:24:44,509 you? 396 00:24:44,510 --> 00:24:45,610 No, I was never given one. 397 00:24:45,970 --> 00:24:49,370 Would you like to present it to me? I certainly will. You can have everything. 398 00:24:49,950 --> 00:24:51,050 Thank you very much indeed. 399 00:24:51,370 --> 00:24:52,370 It's heavy, isn't it? 400 00:24:52,730 --> 00:24:57,030 Yes, well... I don't know what to say. I'm so moved. 401 00:24:59,490 --> 00:25:02,250 Oh, but I like that, that there's no name on it. 402 00:25:03,290 --> 00:25:07,830 Not to boast, I got a minor verse. This is The Golden Globe. 403 00:25:08,410 --> 00:25:11,940 Yes. And mine didn't have a name on it either. 404 00:25:12,780 --> 00:25:16,240 And I was intrigued as to how this golden globe was put together. And I 405 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,000 discovered that on the bottom there was a screw. 406 00:25:18,420 --> 00:25:20,680 And I undid the screw and it all fell apart. 407 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:22,720 I couldn't put it together again. 408 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,860 And then they said, will you please send us back your statue? 409 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,460 So I had to say, I can't find it. 410 00:25:32,780 --> 00:25:33,800 We can't find it. 411 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:37,820 Ian. There we go. There he is. 412 00:25:39,790 --> 00:25:43,370 I remember telling you, learn to love failing because it's what you're going 413 00:25:43,370 --> 00:25:44,370 to learn most from. 414 00:25:46,690 --> 00:25:52,210 In one way, Ian and I have had very similar careers, both of us finding a 415 00:25:52,210 --> 00:25:54,850 wider kind of fame later in life. 416 00:25:55,490 --> 00:25:56,930 This is showing off. 417 00:25:57,510 --> 00:26:00,630 Oh, that's very good. That was given to me on the last day. 418 00:26:01,030 --> 00:26:05,030 That's you being... It's me being him. ..being serious. 419 00:26:05,570 --> 00:26:08,370 Me being quite serious. It's a very good... 420 00:26:08,700 --> 00:26:10,260 Didn't happen a lot. 421 00:26:11,220 --> 00:26:12,880 How many of those did you make? 422 00:26:13,420 --> 00:26:14,660 Eight. Eight. 423 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,260 I remember Mikey saying, you've got to do it, Jude. 424 00:26:18,660 --> 00:26:21,300 I'd like very much to live with a Bond girl. 425 00:26:21,740 --> 00:26:22,740 Yes. 426 00:26:22,980 --> 00:26:23,980 Yes. 427 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:31,760 Of course, rather than Six Foot Blonde, I played 007's slightly smaller, no 428 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,360 -nonsense boss, Emma. How the hell did you find out where I lived? 429 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:36,960 Same way I found out your name. 430 00:26:37,550 --> 00:26:40,410 I thought M was a randomly assigned letter. I had no idea it stood for... 431 00:26:40,410 --> 00:26:41,990 I'll do one more syllable and I'll have you killed. 432 00:26:43,990 --> 00:26:48,750 I remember when I was playing Gandalf for the first time, an American friend 433 00:26:48,750 --> 00:26:51,090 said, your life's about to change forevermore. 434 00:26:51,370 --> 00:26:52,490 I said, what do you mean? 435 00:26:52,790 --> 00:26:53,790 He said, you wait. 436 00:26:54,310 --> 00:26:57,790 And, of course, in a sense it has, because those films, like the Bond 437 00:26:57,790 --> 00:27:01,870 films, are seen by so many millions of people... I know. 438 00:27:02,210 --> 00:27:03,690 ..who care about them. 439 00:27:06,990 --> 00:27:12,970 In a way that... Well, for us, they were jobs, weren't they? Very nice jobs. 440 00:27:13,150 --> 00:27:14,150 Totally nice jobs. 441 00:27:14,950 --> 00:27:19,650 Birmingham Fire Brigade may no longer have been supplying the wardrobe, but no 442 00:27:19,650 --> 00:27:24,650 matter the size and complexity of the production, it is still just acting. 443 00:27:25,170 --> 00:27:27,490 So I'm just looking vaguely apprehensive. 444 00:27:27,810 --> 00:27:31,710 Vaguely apprehensive and wary at the trees. They're kind of creepy. This is 445 00:27:31,710 --> 00:27:33,770 potentially your first shot on The Return of the King. 446 00:27:39,150 --> 00:27:40,150 And action. 447 00:27:44,390 --> 00:27:49,650 And when you've had careers as long as we've had, it doesn't do to get too 448 00:27:49,650 --> 00:27:50,930 carried away with yourself. 449 00:28:01,630 --> 00:28:03,330 Now let's see what we've got here. 450 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:11,000 Then if someone will give me a toothful of gin, I will tell how I once played a 451 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:16,600 part in East Lynn. The stage production of Cats was a huge success, but despite 452 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,680 best efforts, the film didn't quite land with cinema audiences. 453 00:28:21,380 --> 00:28:28,300 And I say now, these kittens, they do not get trained as we did in the days 454 00:28:28,300 --> 00:28:30,980 when Victoria reigned. 455 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:37,760 They do not get drilled in the rag of the troop and they think the smartest 456 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:39,440 will jump you up. 457 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:45,860 I once made the mistake of watching that on my television at home. I didn't know 458 00:28:45,860 --> 00:28:47,060 it was just an extract. 459 00:28:47,420 --> 00:28:51,240 And I thought, well, well done Ian, that's really not bad at all. 460 00:28:51,660 --> 00:28:53,100 And then it said comments. 461 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,620 And I read the comments. I didn't get past three. 462 00:28:58,810 --> 00:29:01,170 They're all so disapproving. 463 00:29:02,910 --> 00:29:05,950 Anyway, there we go. It wasn't, yeah, it wasn't. Not your favourite moment? 464 00:29:06,310 --> 00:29:10,530 It wasn't, well, because you knew I was going to be in the original production 465 00:29:10,530 --> 00:29:13,810 playing Isabella. Of course you were. And then snapped my Achilles tendon. 466 00:29:14,170 --> 00:29:15,069 Of course you were. 467 00:29:15,070 --> 00:29:16,850 Ten days before we were to open. 468 00:29:17,730 --> 00:29:18,830 So it wasn't for me. 469 00:29:19,550 --> 00:29:21,430 No. I was frightful in the film. 470 00:29:22,130 --> 00:29:23,450 So fast. 471 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:28,880 Just so that you know, I had no control over my CGI ears. 472 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,280 A cat is not a dog. 473 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:38,860 We enjoyed watching the youngsters at it, didn't we? The dancers. 474 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:40,280 We loved it. 475 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:43,900 They were wonderful, the dancers. 476 00:29:49,540 --> 00:29:53,280 Maybe the best way to survive success or failure. 477 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:55,780 is to take neither of them too seriously. 478 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:00,840 Hello. Hello. Andy Mowen. 479 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:03,740 Andy. It's a pleasure to meet you, sir. 480 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,540 Please, no titles in the workplace. 481 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:08,860 Sending yourself up. 482 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,620 The very best way to keep your feet on the ground. 483 00:30:12,220 --> 00:30:14,120 How do I act so well? 484 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:20,160 What I do is I pretend to be. 485 00:30:20,810 --> 00:30:23,270 The person I'm portraying in the film or play? 486 00:30:25,330 --> 00:30:26,330 Yeah. 487 00:30:26,550 --> 00:30:27,550 You're confused. 488 00:30:27,630 --> 00:30:31,510 No, it's perfectly simple. Case in point, Lord of the Rings. Peter Jackson 489 00:30:31,510 --> 00:30:36,030 comes from New Zealand and says to me, Sir Ian, I want you to be Gandalf the 490 00:30:36,030 --> 00:30:40,470 wizard. And I say to him, you are aware that I am not really a wizard. 491 00:30:43,510 --> 00:30:46,110 I was being mocked because I'm such a pompous actor. 492 00:30:46,350 --> 00:30:48,030 How do I act so well? 493 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:54,020 If we were to draw a graph of my process, of my method, something like 494 00:30:54,020 --> 00:30:56,640 this, Sir Ian, Sir Ian, Sir Ian, action. 495 00:30:56,900 --> 00:30:58,560 You shall not pass! 496 00:30:58,880 --> 00:30:59,880 Cut! 497 00:31:00,220 --> 00:31:01,840 Sir Ian, Sir Ian, Sir Ian. 498 00:31:02,980 --> 00:31:07,160 It was great fun, but I do think people think I'm rather like that, which is a 499 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,760 pity, because I'm only a little bit like that. 500 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,740 But he was very difficult to work with because he kept laughing all the time. 501 00:31:14,409 --> 00:31:18,170 Oh, that's very nice. How flattering. Well, it was. You were on the right 502 00:31:18,170 --> 00:31:22,990 track. I know, but then we had to keep going back and starting again. 503 00:31:23,210 --> 00:31:28,250 And I said, I wish you'd stop laughing because eventually I won't be funny and 504 00:31:28,250 --> 00:31:31,010 you won't laugh and that'll be the take you have to use. He said, exactly. 505 00:31:32,830 --> 00:31:36,230 He said, it's my job to make you look crap so that I win the BAFTA. 506 00:31:38,170 --> 00:31:40,890 And he did win the BAFTA. And he did? Yes. 507 00:31:48,590 --> 00:31:52,730 Well, I think what I was doing with my life, and I think in a sense what you 508 00:31:52,730 --> 00:31:55,670 were doing, we were having careers. 509 00:31:56,310 --> 00:32:02,070 We weren't hoping to be famous. We weren't hoping to be rich. And it was a 510 00:32:02,070 --> 00:32:04,970 job that we intended to do as long as we were capable. 511 00:32:05,650 --> 00:32:07,590 And we're going to get better at the job. 512 00:32:08,150 --> 00:32:09,150 And we did. 513 00:32:09,950 --> 00:32:14,470 You know, somebody who's a carpenter, by the end of their career is making better 514 00:32:14,470 --> 00:32:16,350 chairs than they were when they started out. 515 00:32:17,420 --> 00:32:20,920 The feeling that you've done a good performance can be very gratifying. 516 00:32:21,140 --> 00:32:26,000 But every now and again, a role comes along which reaches audiences on a much 517 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:27,000 deeper level. 518 00:32:28,660 --> 00:32:30,340 Do you remember Prospect Theatre? 519 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,760 Yes. Did you ever work with them? I don't think you did. 520 00:32:34,020 --> 00:32:35,900 I don't think so. No, I don't see. 521 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:37,740 It was a touring company. 522 00:32:38,740 --> 00:32:44,560 And I'd played Richard II for them one year. And they revived it the following 523 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,970 season. on the tour, but we added Edward II. 524 00:32:54,070 --> 00:32:58,050 Oh, but are you moved that Gaveston sits here? It is our pleasure. 525 00:32:58,310 --> 00:33:04,430 Now, Edward II is the first play, I think, ever written with a gay hero, the 526 00:33:04,430 --> 00:33:05,429 king. 527 00:33:05,430 --> 00:33:07,910 Welcome. Kiss not my hand. 528 00:33:08,410 --> 00:33:10,730 Embrace me, Gaveston, as I do thee. 529 00:33:12,550 --> 00:33:13,730 Precious O'Neill. 530 00:33:19,210 --> 00:33:22,430 It involved me kissing James Lawrenson. 531 00:33:25,530 --> 00:33:31,350 And when we took it to Edinburgh, it was still against the law in Scotland 532 00:33:31,350 --> 00:33:33,970 for two men to make love. 533 00:33:34,390 --> 00:33:35,530 Against the law. 534 00:33:36,490 --> 00:33:38,430 Against the law for people making love. 535 00:33:39,030 --> 00:33:40,030 When was this? 536 00:33:40,790 --> 00:33:42,250 I'm talking about 1969. 537 00:33:42,710 --> 00:33:44,170 It had become... 538 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:49,220 Sort of legal in England in 67, in Scotland still. 539 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:56,340 In this scene, the forces behind the throne conspire to banish Edward's 540 00:33:56,340 --> 00:34:02,300 lover. Proud over daring peers, ere my sweet Gaveston shall part from me, this 541 00:34:02,300 --> 00:34:06,260 isle shall fleet upon the ocean and wander to the unfrequented inn. You know 542 00:34:06,260 --> 00:34:10,300 that I am legate to the Pope. On your allegiance to the sea of Rome, subscribe 543 00:34:10,300 --> 00:34:12,139 as we have done to his exile. 544 00:34:13,870 --> 00:34:19,710 We were doing the play in the headquarters of the Church of Scotland. 545 00:34:21,469 --> 00:34:27,730 So when two men kissed on those premises, some people thought it was 546 00:34:27,730 --> 00:34:29,489 offensive in every possible way. 547 00:34:29,690 --> 00:34:36,630 And one of them, a counsellor, John Kidd, said that our performance should 548 00:34:36,630 --> 00:34:38,070 be abandoned. 549 00:34:38,770 --> 00:34:42,570 And he called up the watch committee and two policemen came and watched the 550 00:34:42,570 --> 00:34:43,570 performance. 551 00:34:46,830 --> 00:34:49,530 Sat on the front row. Did you know that you knew that they were there? 552 00:34:50,530 --> 00:34:52,030 They seemed to be enjoying it. 553 00:34:53,150 --> 00:34:55,030 Started the standing ovation at the end. 554 00:34:57,370 --> 00:35:02,930 That was televised, and people still tell me in America that when they saw 555 00:35:02,930 --> 00:35:08,310 that production on their home screens, they had never seen two men be 556 00:35:08,310 --> 00:35:09,670 affectionate to each other in public. 557 00:35:10,890 --> 00:35:15,770 Hard to believe now, but there was a defiant bravery in staging Edward II. 558 00:35:16,540 --> 00:35:19,480 A courage that Ian would need to call upon again. 559 00:35:20,580 --> 00:35:25,580 Children who need to be taught to respect traditional moral values are 560 00:35:25,580 --> 00:35:29,160 being taught that they have an inalienable right to be gay. 561 00:35:29,620 --> 00:35:34,960 All of those children are being cheated of a sound start in life. 562 00:35:35,180 --> 00:35:36,180 Yes, cheated. 563 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:41,920 In 1988, the government introduced Section 28. 564 00:35:43,510 --> 00:35:48,150 legislation banning local authorities from intentionally promoting 565 00:35:48,150 --> 00:35:49,830 homosexuality. 566 00:35:50,650 --> 00:35:51,210 I 567 00:35:51,210 --> 00:35:58,230 always 568 00:35:58,230 --> 00:36:05,130 knew that you were creative and 569 00:36:05,130 --> 00:36:06,950 I just really wanted you to follow your dream. 570 00:36:08,510 --> 00:36:11,070 So how did you get involved in the campaigning? 571 00:36:11,759 --> 00:36:16,280 Because you've suddenly come forward, as it were, or been projected. Was it you? 572 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,560 Did you suddenly decide you wanted to... Well, I mean, you know, I've been gay 573 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,540 all my life. It's just that I haven't ever come on a chat show and said it. 574 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:28,360 And I've now felt the need to, because the government, with this new law, has 575 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:33,600 brought my private sexuality into the public arena by having a law about it. 576 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:38,860 And so I felt I had to oppose it, not just as an actor who feared censorship, 577 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:40,240 but as a gay man who... 578 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,760 didn't like the climate of opinion that was being encouraged through this law. 579 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:52,440 This was a letter that I asked you to sign, which you did, and Sir John 580 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:53,440 Gielgud. 581 00:36:54,420 --> 00:36:58,540 There are our signatures, Ian McCallan, John Gielgud and Judy Dench. 582 00:37:00,740 --> 00:37:03,400 And that was sent to the Prime Minister, who was John Major. 583 00:37:04,460 --> 00:37:07,740 It was important, I thought, because the three of us involved in live 584 00:37:07,740 --> 00:37:08,740 entertainment. 585 00:37:09,240 --> 00:37:15,720 We're legitimately concerned that at school they might take down out of the 586 00:37:15,720 --> 00:37:22,280 school line with the works of Oscar Wilde and the music of Tchaikovsky and 587 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:26,020 anything else, or the plays of Christopher Marlowe, so on and so on. 588 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,800 The poems of W.H. Auden. 589 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:33,740 12th of February, 1988. 590 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,740 We are worried. The laws may be... 591 00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:42,640 as a signal to victimise homosexuals in word and deed. 592 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:47,420 Our concern is all the more urgent at a time when there is a general, although 593 00:37:47,420 --> 00:37:52,540 irrational, antagonism towards homosexuals as AIDS spreads throughout 594 00:37:52,540 --> 00:37:53,299 the world. 595 00:37:53,300 --> 00:37:59,340 We hope that you may feel able, even at this late stage, to delay our worries by 596 00:37:59,340 --> 00:38:04,380 encouraging an appropriate amendment to Clause 28. 597 00:38:06,670 --> 00:38:13,050 As one of the founding members of Stonewall, Ian, in 2003, was part of one 598 00:38:13,050 --> 00:38:14,550 of its greatest successes. 599 00:38:15,790 --> 00:38:19,670 Please raise your glasses to the death of Section 28. 600 00:38:24,570 --> 00:38:28,250 Thank goodness those days are gone. I mean, we do now live in a country with 601 00:38:28,250 --> 00:38:32,690 some of the best laws with regard to gay people in the world. 602 00:38:33,510 --> 00:38:37,030 Yeah. There's no restrictions, I think, any more than there should be. 603 00:38:38,590 --> 00:38:39,790 So you did your bit. 604 00:39:08,859 --> 00:39:13,540 This is one of my favourite books, Armistead Mopping, Tales of the City. 605 00:39:13,780 --> 00:39:14,538 Oh, yes. 606 00:39:14,540 --> 00:39:19,460 He wrote about life in San Francisco many years ago, but one of his main 607 00:39:19,460 --> 00:39:24,020 characters was gay, and he has him writing this letter to his mother. 608 00:39:25,140 --> 00:39:26,460 It's called Letter to Mama. 609 00:39:28,240 --> 00:39:30,740 I'm sorry it took me so long to write, Mama. 610 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:35,340 Every time I try to write to you and Papa, I realize I'm not saying the 611 00:39:35,340 --> 00:39:36,680 things that are in my heart. 612 00:39:37,460 --> 00:39:40,280 And that would be okay if I loved you any less than I do. 613 00:39:40,900 --> 00:39:43,440 But you're still my parents, and I'm still your child. 614 00:39:45,820 --> 00:39:50,100 I have friends who think I'm foolish to write this letter, and I hope they're 615 00:39:50,100 --> 00:39:51,100 wrong. 616 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,040 I want to tell you the truth, that your own child is homosexual. 617 00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:58,960 I'm sorry, Mama, not for what I am. 618 00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:03,620 But for how you must feel at the moment, I know what that feeling is. 619 00:40:04,220 --> 00:40:06,120 For I felt it for most of my life. 620 00:40:06,340 --> 00:40:09,020 Revulsion, shame, disbelief. 621 00:40:10,340 --> 00:40:15,160 Rejection through fear of something I knew even as a child was as basic to my 622 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,860 nature as the colour of my eyes. 623 00:40:19,260 --> 00:40:22,920 I know what you're thinking now. You're asking yourself, what did we do wrong? 624 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:27,300 How did we let this happen? Which one of us made him that way? 625 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:32,480 I can't answer that, Mama, in the long run, I guess. I really don't care, and 626 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:33,480 all I know is this. 627 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:39,680 If you and Papa are responsible for the way I am, then I thank you. 628 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:53,100 With all my heart, for it's the light, light and the joy of my life. You know, 629 00:40:53,180 --> 00:40:55,540 Judy, will there ever again man read this? 630 00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:58,040 It gets them. 631 00:40:58,720 --> 00:41:00,160 Because it's what they want to say. 632 00:41:01,660 --> 00:41:02,780 It's beautiful, isn't it? 633 00:41:03,020 --> 00:41:05,400 It should be written in stone somewhere. Yes. 634 00:41:09,660 --> 00:41:11,120 Oh, dear. I'm sorry. 635 00:41:11,660 --> 00:41:12,660 I'm not sorry. 636 00:41:13,060 --> 00:41:14,840 It just catches you. 637 00:41:15,100 --> 00:41:16,100 I'm sorry. 638 00:41:19,100 --> 00:41:22,360 But I know, Emily, if you're... 639 00:41:23,470 --> 00:41:26,410 daughter turned out to be gay or your beloved grandson. 640 00:41:27,290 --> 00:41:29,550 How could you not go on loving them, you know? 641 00:41:30,270 --> 00:41:33,550 And... You love them whatever. 642 00:41:33,930 --> 00:41:35,530 Exactly. Whatever happens. 643 00:41:36,030 --> 00:41:37,830 Under any circumstances. 644 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,040 Do you look back in any detail? 645 00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:10,320 Oh, yes. 646 00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,860 Oh, yes, all the time. Always with joy? 647 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:17,640 Or with regrets? Well, with a bit of everything. 648 00:42:18,020 --> 00:42:23,900 A bit of everything. Mostly, though, you know, how lucky I've been. 649 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:25,520 What about death? 650 00:42:26,420 --> 00:42:29,580 Well, out of the door. 651 00:42:30,060 --> 00:42:31,080 Don't talk about it. 652 00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:33,700 Don't think about it. No. 653 00:42:34,670 --> 00:42:37,230 I think about it every single day. No, I don't. 654 00:42:37,570 --> 00:42:38,570 Don't you? No. 655 00:42:39,250 --> 00:42:40,650 Well, I think you've got it right. 656 00:42:44,810 --> 00:42:46,230 What else shall we talk about? 657 00:42:46,490 --> 00:42:48,050 I fell off the stage recently. 658 00:42:48,330 --> 00:42:51,010 Oh, Ian, I was going to ask you about it. 659 00:42:51,730 --> 00:42:53,710 I slipped on some paper. Some paper? 660 00:42:54,150 --> 00:42:58,990 And as I fell off the stage, I said to a full house, Help! 661 00:43:00,630 --> 00:43:04,270 And as I was helped back onto the stage and laid down, I said... 662 00:43:05,420 --> 00:43:06,440 Do I know anyone who's listening? 663 00:43:06,860 --> 00:43:07,960 I am dying. 664 00:43:09,020 --> 00:43:10,020 I wasn't dying. 665 00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:13,360 I sprained my wrist. That's all I did. 666 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:15,760 Very, very lucky. 667 00:43:16,740 --> 00:43:21,640 The joy for me of acting is that I know what I'm doing at last. 668 00:43:21,860 --> 00:43:23,720 In life, I'm not too good at it. 669 00:43:24,060 --> 00:43:28,240 But on stage, I know what's happening next on the whole. 670 00:43:28,660 --> 00:43:32,240 I know what to do about it. I feel it's secure. I feel at home. 671 00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:37,260 But I've been back on stage since and I enjoy it as much as I ever did. 672 00:44:11,150 --> 00:44:16,230 Tell them over and over and over again. 673 00:44:16,850 --> 00:44:23,270 Heaven forbid on June and his misdeeds over.